Homeschool vs Public school? Which one is better?

It’s hard to say which is “better” – it depends on the kid, on the circumstances. I always felt going to a school (whether public or private) is better because it teaches kids conflict resolution, socializing, even if they’re not very social, etc., but it’s not a hard and fast, black and white thing, I understand.

It entirely depends on the circumstances, the quality of education in your area, the dedication of the homeschooler, the curricula available to work with, the support of the community system, etc etc etc. the subject cannot be generalized so easily.

I homeschooled my child for one grade (20 years ago) because of a moving situation, and we both did well with it. Socialization was not an issue, there were many groups for exercise, field trips, projects etc available.

Really, context is all.

9/10 it will be public school. 1/10 you’ll have a situation where you have a dedicated parent/tutor who can give the child an exception education. I admit the ratios are entirely fabricated, but I don’t think they’re too far off the mark (I could be wrong though). I think the vast majority of the time it’s religious parents who have whacky ideas and end up setting their kids back in life. This happened to several of my cousins with my Mormon aunt/uncle who were worried about the “evils” of the public school. Now several of my cousins have middle school-level educations and their opportunities in life are forever limited as a result. I think that’s one of the greatest evils you could impose on someone else.

@gorillapaws That’s the problem – the religious ones who insulate the kids from outside socialization and influences, and the kid grows up in a bubble. Also, if there’s abuse at home, the kid is not seen by outsiders as often who would be able to see it (possibly see it, and report it, or the kid won’t have access to other professionals who are Mandated Reporters and could tell them.

Racists, white nationalists, religious fundamentalists and cult members will attest to the superiority of home schooling. It prevents their children from being exposed to the wider world outside their racist, white nationalist, and fundamentalist conclaves.

I had kids that were home schooled when I did Child Protective, who were not taken to the doctor or dentist (known as medical neglect) whereas in a school, they’re required to show proof of a doctor visit every year or every two years. There’s a bigger chance of the kids falling through the cracks as far as getting seen by a doctor – which also goes back to less chance of being seen by a Mandated Reporter who might see signs of abuse, the way a doctor or nurse will.

Depends on the people involved but quite a few people here do homeschool and the mother is the teacher. Or they pay a teacher for multiple households and parents work. I don’t always feel like the education is superior but the children often turn out to be more independent and strong in character.

Public school here is quite nice and diverse, but the social and emotional trauma can be life-changing in a negative way.

The benefits of a ‘safe’ environment for children with identity issues or mental health issues is often underrated.

Right after Columbine, homeschooling came into the general population, and away from religious people, abusers, cult members, etc etc etc that are mentioned above. There is so much violence that parents are afraid of that smaller, more focused forms of education are a reasonable alternative now. Unfortunately, the stereotypes of fringey, crazies being the main homeschoolers are still prevalent.

A lot of states have their public schools’ resources (libraries, physical education classes, sports opportunities) available to homeschoolers as well.

There is a LOT more to this issue than most people realize unless they have direct experience.

Just as a humorous aside, one of my kids and his wife were all in for homeschooling until they had kids!

As @canidmajor says, it is a very complicated issuing depending on so many different factors. There are kids in my faith congregation who are thriving in home schooling and these parents are not at all religious fanatics. If I lived in certain areas of Florida today, I might want to join up with other liberal parents to home school. But in general, I think it is important for kids and parents to support public education and for kids to be exposed to a variety of ideas and people. Plus, many parents do not have the time,ability or patience to teach their kids.

I have notice home schooled kids don’t get a full exposure on all subjects. The teacher/parent may be strong in one or two fields, but can’t be in all fields. So they may get a good math program, but be weak in sciences, or in literature.

^^^^ And that’s why having a professional curriculum on hand is a good idea.

One common (and I believe accurate) criticism of public schools (and maybe private schools, as well) is that a lot of the time they are spending “teaching to the test” meaning teaching specific subjects so the kids can do well on standardized testing. Doing well on standardized testing helps schools in their rankings, helps get grant money, helps real estate prices when the schools are known for being schools that people are desperate to move into, helps the school budget which translates to bigger raises for teachers and admin, all kinds of things.

Home schooled kids seem to have more leeway and more flexibility as far as what can count as “education. I remember the home schooled kids I dealt with in Child Protective could go to the zoo or an art museum or do a nature walk and it counted toward certain subjects.

My only experience with homeschooling is that of my sister’s kids. I have no idea of the quality of their education at home because she was always rather tight-lipped about it, although that’s her general behavior on everything. But the kids are not socialized at all I’m barely even talk to their aunts and uncles. And I know for a fact that they never had health insurance as a family and so the kids were only ever taken to the doctor when they were sick. So just looking at that perspective, I am against homeschooling most of the time. Oh, and I don’t know what these kids are going to do when something happens to their parents. I don’t know that my brother who lives halfway across the country would be willing to help. I don’t have the funds or the health to do so and I doubt my other sister, who makes pretty good money, would be willing to do so. So it’s going to be a real nightmare.

One other general grape that I have with homeschooling is that, most states do not have any kind of standard requirement for parents homeschooling their kids, or requirements where they do have to show competency grade level wise. I think I’d be a lot more for it if parents were held to a certain standard on basic skills, educational requirements, and even socialization opportunities.

Need some criteria on which to compare. Otherwise you’ll get the “standardized tests” answer which is only part of the picture.

@LifeQuestioner At the time I did it, in Colorado in the late 90’s, the state was quite strict about keeping track. I submitted lesson plans, schedules and updates, and had a state certified professional test for grade level proficiency at the end of it. I know it varies state by state (and may be different now) but it was my understanding that more states were getting stricter about standards as more and more people were pulling their kids from schools.

I didn’t read the answers above.

I think it depends on the parents and the kid and the local school situation.

@canidmajor that may very well be, but I just know that in the past, most states, including Maryland, did not have good control over that sort of thing. Every state should take after Colorado in that respect.

Exactly @canidmajor. All states have certain requirements.
I had a friend who decided to home school her kids. Her idea of teaching was to stick workbooks in front of them while she did her own thing.
I was finishing up my Bachelor’s degree in Education, and that was so sad to me.

I agree with the general consensus that it really does depend on the child and the circumstances. I am a public school teacher, and I believe strongly in the value of public education. But there are certainly situations in which a child will do better in a home environment. There are also situations where homeschooling a particular child is much better (or safer) for everyone else.

Public school sucks, I’m sorry, it does. Homeschooling can be good but IMO it’s likely going to fail to give children the social education that they need… and yes, homeschooling is often a tool used by the ideological to raise their children in “their way.” If we are being honest, public education in affluent areas is almost universally better than in poorer or even middle class areas. The difference is sometimes night and day. Homeschool can be a hellscape for kids or it can be some of the best that there is.

It doesn’t suck @Blackwater_Park!

@Dutchess_III Yes it does.

I have mixed feelings about this. I was a product of public schools and did quite well. But I have also had experience tutoring kids who couldn’t grasp certain topics or concepts. I had an opportunity to homeschool my kids when they were young, but opted not to. It would have required their mother to be their teacher and she was nuts.

I wondered how homeschooling compared to public schools as far as grades and performance went. I found this article that indicates that homeschooled kids typically outperform public schools when it comes to standardized tests as well as college placement tests.

One aspect in which I think Homeschooling is head and shoulders above public schools is that you know exactly what your children are being taught. With the current DEI crap, your kids at public schools could be getting taught your 5 year old needs to apologize to everyone else because he’s/she’s white. Your 12 year old will never be thrown out of class because they have a Gadsen Flag sewn on their backpack.

The challenges I see with homeschooling is first, who is going to teach the children? If you are going to teach them, are you smart enough to teach them the higher level classes such as physics, algebra, calculus, etc? Are you good enough at English or History to be able to give them good education? If the answers to those things are “No”, you need to make sure you have something in place to meet those needs. Another challenge is the things the public schools will likely have that you won’t. Science equipment for instance. A Gymnasium, sports teams, music programs, etc. All of these are things that can be overcome, but require extra effort and planning. If you have an only child, how are they going to learn to socialize with others their own age? If you have 2 or more children, how are you going to teach them at different grade levels?

All the challenges are things that can be overcome, but they do need to be considered.

Given the environment in public schools I’d say homeschooling is a better, safer option if you can swing it. At home you don’t have to worry as much about your kid getting bullied, falling in with the wrong crowd, doing drugs, getting beat up, getting abused, or getting shot or knifed.

At least in my state, there’s little to no oversight as to the content and quality of the material being taught in home schooling.

On a personal level, the only home schoolers I have personally known have been very strange people with very extreme beliefs.

The idea that many have that children who are homeschooled are isolated is just wrong. That may be true in some cases, but kids have friends in their neighborhoods and in activities that are not school based, and in their extended families. Kids are as likely to be isolated in schools as not.

IF a parent is capable of teaching (and most aren’t) then one huge advantage would be the one on one for the kids.

When my family left Canada in April, 1955 (we thought it would be a good time to leave so that we could go to Einstein’s funeral in NJ), I was actually car schooled for about 2 months!

Some states are very lax about homeschool requirements. Here’s a link: https://hslda.org/legal?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA6KWvBhAREiwAFPZM7hNLZSmBDniq0aPiLH8hrp2XIdw9R-nPtybDamnFk2IitQglG2wOmRoCgrAQAvD_BwE

I don’t know if all states have public school at home as an option? Most if not all counties in Florida have online learning as part of the public school system, which is a separate thing from homeschooling, both are options here.

Plus, of course is the option of private schools, just very expensive. Some kids thrive in the private school environment, some do better in public school, some better in home school, and it might change over time. I know a lot of kids who did homeschool through 5th grade or 8th grade or even 10th grade, and then went to public. Or, one went to public through 7th grade, then 3 years at home, then back to public school.

School can be really horrible for some kids, so if they can’t transfer then another option is good to get them out of the situation. Tolerating a bad situation that might actually be dangerous mentally or physically usually isn’t good in my opinion. Need to make a real change and get the child to a better situation.

I also think public schools should have fast tracks so kids can through faster. Homeschool is a luxury for families that have an adult who can be home with the kids.

Edit: large public schools tend to have a wide breadth of electives and opportunities for children that private and homeschool are less likely to have.

@JLeslie That link is somewhat misleading. There are heavy restrictions in some states that the state is putting on the parents to control homeschooling. For example: some of the more regulated states require a Teaching Certificate to be able to homeschool your kids. Some of the lesser controlled states do not.

Looking at the states that have heavy regulation and what that regulation is makes it look like those states are trying to discourage homeschooling, forcing the kids into either public or private schools.

In public schools teacher’s have to have a degree in Education. 4 years of college.
Middle school and high school teacher’s have to have a Master’s in their field.

@seawulf575 You looked at it more carefully than I did. Thanks for the feedback.

@Dutchess_III Depends on the state. A lot of states let people teach secondary school with a bachelor’s degree and some sort of addition training or certificate. Sometimes the teacher doesn’t need to have completed the certificate to start teaching. I found this link. https://thebestschools.org/resources/teaching-requirements-by-state/

I don’t mean to sound like an ass, but IMO a degree in education is not much more than a high school education. Most states teachers do not need a master’s degree.

Wow. Why do you think that?

I can imagine very few circumstances where homeschooling would be preferable to public schooling.

@Dutchess_III Because it’s not a rigorous program. It’s general, weak and intended to give teacher’s just enough skill to teach things at a high school or below level

If I’m not mistaken, in NYS you have five years in which to complete your Masters, plus you need a Teaching Certificate. It’s so competitive that unless you have a Masters, there’s little chance you’ll get hired in a public school here. Private schools don’t have such a stringent requirement. Private schools, you can have a Bachelors. This is for elementary as well as MS and HS.

Well the first two years are just as rigorous for every college student. X number of credits in English, science etc. The last 2 years the focus is on your major. Methods of teaching, classroom control etc. The degree allows you to teach K thru 9.
In Kansas to be strictly a HS English teacher you do have to have a masters in English.

@Dutchess_III No it’s not. Say that to an engineering, physics, mathematics or architecture student.

I think teaching high school, the most important thing is knowledge of the subject not a teaching degree.

That’s where the Master’s comes in @Jleslie.

Engineering, physics and architecture students have to take the same credits as everyone else those first two years. Are you saying those first two years are worthless?

@Dutchess_III Masters in what? The subject? Many subjects a bachelors is enough to teach high school, even better if the teacher has worked in the field also for some subjects.

Most states you need a bachelor’s degree in almost anything and then a certificate of some sort and take some tests in some states to be able to teach.

Why would a teacher need a masters to teach accounting? They can work in the field with a BA and are CPA’s. A CPA could easily teach first year accounting. My husband could probably teach Spanish, since it’s his first language. He happens to have a masters, but it’s in Business.

Yes. The subject @JLeslie.

In my university the requirements to get into elementary ed were not as rigorous as Engineering or the Business school. Not close. My girlfriend who teaches never would have made it into the Business School. She would never do well enough in math.

@Dutchess_III They do not take the same credits, they take more rigorous credits. Calculus based Physics, Differential Equations, Organic Chemistry… Frankly, English, foreign language and general science credits were “GPA boosters.” And as far as Master’s degrees, I have an MBA and it was a godamn joke compared to getting an engineering degree. A master’s in education is an even bigger joke. I wish our teacher’s were truly educated but they’re just not. Our kids deserve better. I don’t even feel like I got an education until college. It was not even a university at first, it was a tech school but it was taught by PHDs with industry experience. Those motherfuckers knew what they were doing and they could teach because they could do. We don’t educate our teachers like this, we churn them out with bullshit degrees and pay them pennies.

@Dutchess_III I don’t think that’s how it works. Unless, I’m misunderstanding what I read on the link I provided.

I agree that when you get to the point where you’re actively working on your major some course work is more rigorous for some than others. But the initial requirements are the same. X amounts of credits in science, math, whatever.
I went to K State for 2 years. When it came to electives I jumped on the sciences but my major was in Mass Communication.

I have said before, that I don’t believe that there should be “private” schools.
This usually results in the wealthy just sending their kids to private schools, and let the public schools rot.

If ALL the kids were forced to go to the same place, then the overall quality would be far greater in public schools.

I can understand the appeal of homeschooling, to parents.
But. I see it as a disadvantage for the kids.
I have known several home schooled people. They are ALL a little “off” socially.

If your child will never leave your home, or tiny religious community then homeschooling is perfect.

If they are expected to compete with the ordinary world, they will struggle through life without the admittedly traumatic experience of public education.

Whatever teaches people to ask “what’s better?” or “what’s the best?” questions on the Internet, is inferior.

Seriously: they’re different. Neither one is just “better”.

In fact, EACH student’s experience in EVERY school, is different.

I once took a “See if you pay attention” test to my friend that home schools.

The paper gave a whole list of things to do or answer like “Draw a triangle.”
However the FIRST instruction was “Don’t do any of these instructions.”
Well her girls failed it. So did I the first time.
She got angry and yelled at them. I felt so bad for them.
That isn’t how a real teacher behaves. You don’t shame your students for messing up.

It all depends on the teacher, both sides.

I homeschooled my son and my grandsons. We used our own curriculum at first, then found an out reach program from the public school. With the two We have now we are enrolled in a charter school and the boys do all their work online with weekly zoom meetings with real teachers. They both have autism, and tried public schools for the first three years, and but it wasn’t working out.

@gorillapaws No ones life is forever limited, unless they choose to let it be. Adults can go to school anytime they want to, and adult school is often free. I frequently read success stories of parents graduating with their children, or grandparents finally getting their highschool diplomas.

@Dutchess_III “That’s where the Master’s comes in” I didn’t complete college until well into adulthood. I did, however, complete the Naval Nuclear Power Program when I was 20. It was a 6 month school followed by 6 months of hands-on. At the time I went a study was done that listed the hardest degrees to get and rated the NNP school into them. First was a Harvard Law degree, second was MIT Engineering and third was NNPS. This training was so difficult, many students that went to it didn’t pass. It taught Geometry, Algebra, Calculus, Physics, Chemistry, Heat Transfer and Fluid Flow, Mechanical engineering theory, Electrical engineering theory, Electronic engineering theory, all the education for Radiation and how it interacts with other materials and much, much more. All that was jammed into 6 months.

I got no degree from it.

It did, however, qualify me to work at civilian nuclear power plants. That is where almost all people that worked at civilian nuclear power plants got their education at that time. In my time in nuke power I had to train others, had to teach classes, and had to work with the plants.

Are you suggesting I would need a master’s degree to be competent to teach a high schooler?

@seawulf575 At one point Gov. DeSantis was under fire for suggesting that people with military service should be eligible to teach. I’m not sure where that went. I think they did need some college, but not a degree yet to start teaching. Military service had to be a certain length also.

The one with the better teachers.

@Dutchess_III I’m going to take back some of my comments. I did a little poking around a few different well regarded universities and what classes education majors are required to take and was pleasantly surprised. It’s certainly not the same two first years as other rigorous majors but it’s still pretty good as far as general education, especially the universities that offered specialized programs. That said, if you’re lucky enough to live in a state that requires it but many do not. Honestly, my state is full of loopholes where just about anyone can get a teaching certificate.

@YARNLADY “No ones life is forever limited. ...I frequently read success stories of parents graduating with their children, or grandparents finally getting their highschool diplomas.”

And how many of those people go on to become doctors or advanced mathematicians, etc? I know one of my cousins was a very sharp guy. If he’d been given a proper education in his younger years, maybe he could have found a cure for cancer or something. I’m not saying that folks can’t go on to get a GED, associates, andergrad or even an advanced degrees, but that it bends the trajectory of their future opportunities with such a late start.

@Blackwater_Park Things have loosened up – at least in my state – because they don’t pay teachers enough and parents yell at them all day!

Here, you can be a substitute with just a Bachelors. Subs gets 150 a day, which is not even minimum wage in this state, I think. That’s why they have a hard time getting substitutes.

The few people I know who are teachers have told me that behavior problems have reached a boiling point and they can’t do much about it. That’s another reason.

99/100 times, it will be worse for the kid in experience and in education.

99/100 times it will involve significant, consistent devotions of time and energy from parents that will significantly, negatively effect other aspects of their lives.

So …. that’s one in ten thousand home schooling situations that is good for parent and child. The other 9,999 homeschools are just there to justify each other’s existence or abuse children.

If you have a degree and massive experience in a field you can teach it. But you still have to take courses that teaches you HOW to teach. That could probably be done in 6 months.
That’s where the teaching certificate comes in.

@Blackwater_Park I subbed full time for 3 years at between $50 and $75 a day until I was offered a position out side of the field.
It can be rough, especially for subs! Takes half a day to get the kids to stop testing and misbehaving to see what I would do.

One family here told me the bathroom law for transgender kids is why they chose homeschool.
Today I think the political landscape has a lot of influence on these decisions.

@KNOWITALL Is there even a transgender child in their local school? I am stunned how the Republicans effectively made that a wedge issue. The Democrats helped it along to make it a wedge issue, but it is just mind blowing to me. It is such a small number of kids, I feel it could have been handled on a local level to accommodate children and make all children in a particular school comfortable.

I think being educated on how to teach is the biggest issue between home schooling and public schools.
In a public school the difference between paras and actual teachers is blinding. Paras do a lot of yelling! Real teachers are calm, cool, quiet and collected
... because they’ve been taught to model the behaviors they expect from the kids.
Paras just act like bossy parents.
I once sat in one of my grandkids classes. Teacher had them seated 4 to a table. I sat next to my granddaughter. A girl sitting across from us started rustling papers when the teacher was trying to talk. I reached out a quietly put my hand on the paper. She looked at me and met The Teacher Look. She gulped and behaved for the rest of the time. It was all very quiet and subtle with 0 class interruption.
Paras tend to hiss and yell.

.

It’s kind of an unanswerable questions. The answer, of course, is “It depends”. For some kids public school is better. For others, homeschooling is better. For others, private school is better. It depends on the child, the parents, the resources, the environment, all kinds of things.

@canidmajor that’s not true in all cases as far as the socialization. I know that with my sister and her husband, who are not the most normalized people themselves, they don’t really mix much outside of the home. Maybe a little bit at church. And so in her case, her kids would have been much more socialized if they had gone to public school.

By the way, when I went to college, I didn’t just take all general requirements the first two years. To me that didn’t make any sense. I immediately jumped in on my calculus courses, physics, and foreign language. (I was initially intending to get my degree in the secondary education with a specialization in math and Spanish so I could teach either or, or both.

@Dutchess_III we didn’t have paras at our school, but just teachers and assistant teachers. And assistant teachers did not have to have their four year degree. But they weren’t any more prone to yelling and hissing, as you say, then the teachers. I imagine paras are the same way, where a lot of it depends on the person’s general demeanor and personality.

@JLeslie Yes there are transgender students using regular bathrooms here in rural Missouri.

Something else that isn’t really being discussed is the failure of the public schools to educate our children. We have been having issues with proficiency in the basics for decades. It isn’t really getting better. Baltimore is cheering and how good their schools are getting with only 25% of students being proficient in reading. That is a sad statement. Meanwhile homeschooled kids are typically outperforming the public school educated kids. Significantly.

@KNOWITALL I just meant the specific school the kid would be going to. I don’t doubt there are some children in “rural MO” who are transgender. I think the school should put in a bathroom that is a single. Maybe there are is one in the admin office. Crazy to me that a child has to completely shift their education for this issue.

@seawulf575…source?

@JLeslie They are asked to use the nurses office restroom but go in the bathroom they identify with. Since school (we have one k-12 school in most small towns) does not enforce it, some parents are not okay with it.

@KNOWITALL And I’m sure there are some parents of trans kids who home school their kids because they are afraid they will get beaten in bathrooms in public schools like Nex Benedict was.

@janbb Probably so. Both have valid concerns.

Bathrooms are where students get beat up for any reason by other asshole students.

Things sure were simpler in my day. I used to use the bathroom in the nurse’s office, but that’s just because I thought no one else knew about it and I’m a shy pooper. ;)

It’s funny how this bathroom thing has exploded into such a controversy, despite being an entirely manufactured issue. It’s awkward enough using the bathroom at school without the politics of it. Oh well. Fake it till you have a problem you can get people riled up about, that’s what I always say.

@Dutchess_III It was in my last post. Look for the red letters.

@KNOWITALL I see. I understand why some parents aren’t ok with it. That’s why I was suggesting a separate single bathroom. I would think some trans kids prefer to be in private anyway, and a decent amount of the kids probably prefer more privacy. There should be more options so it isn’t odd for a child to use a single.

I always thought it was weird how children are expected to change, shower, and sometimes even go to the bathroom in front of each other. I was never very modest, so it wasn’t a very big deal for me, but many kids it is a big deal.

Repost it down here, @seawulf575

@Dutchess_III This was the link from @seawulf575 : https://www.nheri.org/research-facts-on-homeschooling/

@Dutchess_III My daughter has never said the paras in her elementary, middle or high school were mean. Maybe it depends on the District. We’re in a small, affluent district and I don’t think the parents around here would go for that.

@JLeslie I think the single use bathooms are a good idea. I know when I’m traveling, or eating in a restaurant, if I have to go to the bathroom and the ladies room is taken, I’ll think nothing of using the mens room, as long as it’s a single room (no stalls), and the door locks. Nobody has ever cared. It makes no sense to wait outside the ladies room when someone is in there taking a long time, if I can go to the mens room and just get it done.

I use the men’s room also if the women’s has a line. I think nothing of it. We have always done it.

A lot of the singles are now called family restrooms and are for any gender.

@JLeslie I’ve been in multi-stall, multi-gender restrooms where each stall has a door that goes from floor to ceiling, and the sinks are communal, so you go in there, shut the stall door and then come out and all use the sinks together. The first one I was ever in that was like that was at the restaurant at the Museum of Modern Art in NYC, about 20 years ago.

Thank you @jca2.i scanned it. It looks interesting. I’ll read it more carefully tomorrow.

However from my scan I can see that nothing backed up Seaywulfs claim that “Baltimore is cheering and how good their schools are getting with only 25% of students being proficient in reading.” Which is what I was asking proof for.

Get back to this tomorrow.

@Dutchess_III I looked at it briefly and I agree with you. I see also that the link is from a homeschooling advocacy group, which, of course they’re going to find rosy statistics about homeschooling. That’s what they do and the more people that they can encourage to homeschool, the stronger their movement grows. I would be more impressed if there was a link from an objective organization, like the state education department or the US Department of Education or something like that.

@jca2 I don’t think I’ve been in that bathroom at MoMA.

NYC a lot of small restaurants or coffee shops like Starbucks have singles that are for either gender, it has been like that for as long as I can remember.

Then you have the Bloomies 4th floor bathroom, the ladies room has a large lounge (unless it changed since I’ve been there) with comfortable furniture, which was nice for women who wanted to breast feed. Maybe some people see that as banishing women to the bathroom to breast feed?

Wasn’t there an old SNL skit about the ladies room being some sort of luxurious lounge? Lol.

@JLeslie Haha it’s true. Lots of bathrooms in hotels (big hotel/conference centers) and fancy department stores and theaters have the lounge/anteroom attached to the ladies room. Cushy furniture and big mirrors for the ladies to sit or look at themselves from all angles.

When my youngest grandson was in a Charter school, over the four years he was there, K – 3, the student enrollment gradually become mostly black. He was the only white student left in his class, and the other students called him (white) “ghost” and pushed him around during recess They also “pants” him.. His teacher allowed him to stay in during recess to protect him. When we found out what was happening, we switched to homeschooling, and his white teacher (one of the only ones left) quit.

^I had a very rough time in elementary school, here in Charleston SC.
I started my education in Germany, and moved back here when I was almost 8 years old.

When we first moved back, my parents didn’t have jobs, so we stayed with my father’s parents in a really bad neighborhood.
The school was primarily black.
I would like to say, they treated me no different from anyone else. That was not the case though. They hated me because I was white. Except none of the teachers stood up for me. In fact, I got paddled by the principle, whenever I got beat up.
The only difference between those schools and high-school was that all races were mean.

I learned to box, and eventually got into Martial Arts.
By the time I was 14, I was 6’4, and lifted weights, and played multiple sports.

It would not be unfair to say that I only gained respect, once I physically could fight off bullies.
That got me in trouble, more often than not.

I just stayed ro myself most of the time. I would draw a lot, instead of taking part in class.
Eventually I started skipping lunches, because that was when most of the fighting occurred.
I started skipping school, all together, and just got my GED, so I could go to college.

College, was an eye opening experience. People wanted to be there. The professors were engaging, and challenging.

If my entire education was like college, I would have likely been much more successful in life.

I do not consider myself stupid.
But. 90% of my knowledge was self-taught, researched by me, or learned from sources outside of public school.

The public schools always seem so run down. My middle school was so old, it had two water fountains and bathrooms in each wing. From segregation times.

My high-school was built for 900 students. I think there were more like 2,500 kids there.
Definitely more than 40 in a class. If you were late, you probably had to sit on the floor.

My gymnasium in high-school, was out of control. There were 20-something year old men in the locker rooms, who were not students. They were drug dealers.
We couldn’t lock the doors of the gym, because of fire code.
This was before Columbine, so security was nonexistent.
People would come and go as they pleased. I NEVER saw a teacher in the locker room.
People used to get not just beat up, but beat down in there.
Nobody EVER helped. You were just glad it wasn’t you that day.

The public schools here, have been consistently some of the worst in testing for all subjects.
49th in this, 45th in that, 50th, in this.
They have since built newer, and nicer schools.
My nephew didn’t have anything close to his father’s or my experiences in school.

My problem, was that I was white, in a majority black city.
To achieve diversity, white kids were bused out to rural schools.
I attended elementary and middle school, FAR away from the closest public school. The schools which were partly why my parents moved there, were too white. So I didn’t even know or live by many of the kids who attended.

I think, all that adversity made me a better person. Well. A better person for surviving in this world.

One of the problems with homeschooling is that it does not prepare them, for reality.

I’ve been in multigender bathrooms that even have urinals in them. It’s not a big deal. This, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with homeschooling.

^Your opponents in this matter, will say that girls can’t handle it.
Apparently. The only males that would use such a restroom, are rapists.

Thanks to all for bringing up the fact that the amount of “trans” kids using alternative restrooms, is likely a extreme minority in schools and that some may have none.

The restroom thing, is a remnant of the nation’s backwardly religious roots.
In some countries, people shit on the side of the road.

When I was in public school, the restrooms were very unsafe places BECAUSE it was just boys. Most teachers are female.
They couldn’t come into the restroom until a male teacher showed up. People just fought in there. Groups of kids used to bash and shake the stall walls, if you were unfortunate enough to have to go #2 in school.

Kids are assholes.

@Dutchess_III https://www.wbaltv.com/article/baltimore-city-county-school-test-results-mcap/45328021

@MrGrimm888 That’s a great point. Also boy who identifies as female is using the girls room to escape violence, not cause it.

@MrGrimm888 What’s funny is that the place I usually see it is in a local theater. There is a womens restroom and an all gender restroom. Many women prefer the all gender restroom because the line is faster during intermission.

Geez Wulf. Do you even read your sources? The first paragraph says students are doing better!
The whole article has nothing at all to do with home schooling vs public schooling and proves nothing.
Some kids are just dumb because their parents are dumb. Dumb parents can’t teach for shit.

@Caravanfan Yeah, every bar I’ve ever bounced in, it was hard to keep the women out of the men’s room.

Especially if the bar is in downtown Charleston.
There are no public restrooms. People CONSTANTLY get tickets for public urination. I don’t see how the girls hold their bladders so long.

On St. Paddies Day, all bars will have a 45 minute wait for every toilet. People WILL be peeing in the streets.

I think women are a lot tougher than they get credit for.
I think rapists, are going to rape, no matter what restroom signs say. Unfortunately.
I imagine that a child who is struggling with gender issues, has more on their mind than hurting biological girls.

I think the aim by liberals, was to de-stigmatize children with such issues.

After the shooting in the gay club in Orlando, my company picked up an account at a huge gay bar in Charleston. As I was very high in the company, they put me on as HOS, and I had some other armed guys.
Women absolutely flocked to that place. Lots of them were straight. They just ”feel safer,” in gay clubs. You know. Away from the constant attention of straight men.
In that club, there was only one restroom area. For all to use.
I took a piss in there dozens of times.

Honestly. I came away marveling at the LBGTQ + community. They were never violent. Respectful. And when the club closed, they just left like they were supposed to. That’s the ONLY club I ever worked, where I never had to put my hands on someone.

I believe that conservatives are somehow convinced that “gay,” is contagious. There’s the issue.

Dutch. I never thought about it. But do parents who homeshool, have to have some sort of certification, or pass tests on subject they teach?
If not, my opinion just changed rapidly to oppose homeschooling.

@MrGrimm888 It’s funny you should mention that story. My daughter is a young 20-something in LA and goes to clubs not infrequently. She LOVES going to the West Hollywood gay club scene because she says she never gets hassled.

Designating a specific toilet for trans students to use does more harm than good. It singles them out. Trans students already have a target on their back and this just exasperates the problem.

A majority of trans students eat and drink less during the school day so they won’t have to use the restroom. They also hold their urine in to avoid using the restroom. Holding your urine causes harm and causes the student to not have the attention they need to focus on school work.

I know this because my son went through it.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/without-federal-protections-trans-students-face-potential-health-crisis-n725156

^Kids are SO cruel.
I can’t imagine…

@Dutchess_III Yes, I read the article….did you? Yes, they are bragging the schools are doing better. Their reading comprehension, for example is up from 10% of students meeting standard to 25% of students meeting standards. I don’t consider that a great thing. It shows that 75% of students still aren’t meeting standards. The article tried framing this as a great win because the authors didn’t want to say the schools were horrible. But even the article says 25% isn’t great.

And no, this article doesn’t have to do with homeschooling. I made a claim earlier that Baltimore, as an example, was failing in the education of students to even the level of standardized tests. I posted another article that showed homeschooling produced students who consistently do better on these same tests. You threw a flag saying I didn’t post a citation. When it was pointed out there was a citation, you said there was no citation about how bad Baltimore schools are. So you got it. I just had to go to browser history. Now you are complaining this citation has nothing to do with homeschooling.

I have to question if you were a graduate of Baltimore schools.

@MrGrimm888 “But do parents who homeshool, have to have some sort of certification, or pass tests on subject they teach?” That was discussed further up the thread. The requirements vary from state to state. Some of the most restrictive states require parents to actually get a teaching certificate to be able to pay. My view of all the obstacles that are put in the way of parents like this are designed to try stopping homeschooling (not homeshooling, btw). As my earlier citation about performance of homeschooled kids on overall testing compared to public schools shows that even with less restrictive standards being imposed by the state, the kids are doing better than those in public schools. That, alone, should make you question how good the teaching certificate is when those without get better results than those that have them.

This nonsense about “We could have stopped or prevented abuse if he/she had gone to a school instead of been homeschooled” is ridiculous. I went to public and private schools. My experiences there were excruciating. My “socialization” came at a great price, but the private school did actually give me an education, while the public school was just a platform to promote abuse. Horrific.

@seawulf575 is correct. Not all kids do well in a homeschool, but statistically homeschooled kids do much better than public schooled kids. I met a graduate from public school who admitted he did not know how to read. He said he just didn’t bother to pay attention, but they graduated him anyway. That was 40 years ago! Our public schools are worse now!

Well., as I said if you have parents who can actually teach then the kids do better because it’s one on one.
My girlfriend just stuck workbooks under their noses and left.

Sorry Wulf, I didn’t have my reading glasses on, and I foolishly thought my phone was auto-correcting.
As I got older, it’s hard for me to separate letters looking at them.

As far as a parent needing to have some skills, I do think that’s important.
If someone is going to take the time to homeschool one or more of their children, making sure they understand what NEEDS to be taught should be important to them as well.

I completely get your point about this being a problematic situation.

I suppose I think about it like this ;
If your child is malnourished, then the government may step in. Because the parent/guardian is unable for whatever reason to properly feed the child.

If a homeshool teacher does not prepare the child for integration into society, they are essentially hurting the child. To be clear, I’m mainly talking about math, linguistics, reading/compression, and basic science. Although I already see a problem with people’s religious beliefs, in some instances, conflicting current scientific fact.
I could be wrong, but I do believe it is mainly religious people who homeshool.

I don’t know if you follow the NFL draft, but a player at the combine (Tyler Owens,) who told scouts (potential employers) that he ”doesn’t believe in space,” or ”other planets.”
He was raised “very religious.”

I understand that his family wants him to follow their faith.
To them, it could mean their child’s “soul” is at stake.

He allegedly attended college in two Texas colleges.
His family seems to have a young man they are very proud of. I am absolutely sure that his family is probably a great bunch of people.
But.
They instilled in him, their beliefs.
Did they actually damage this young man though?

Hypothetically. If you are an employer looking for employees, would you hire a kid fresh out of college that doesn’t believe in space?

@MrGrimm888 I’m not disagreeing that parents need to be realistic about what they can and can’t teach. There are ways around the shortcomings, though. If the parents are willing to do them. If a parent is taking on the responsibility of homeschooling their children, they are likely going to put forth the effort. If they didn’t care about the kids or didn’t want the effort, they would just ship the kids off to public school every day. In the end, the government does effectively have a say in this. All kids that graduate have to pass some version of a test that shows at least that they have the basics.

As for parents pushing a religious viewpoint, I’d suggest that is going to happen with homeschooling or with public school. If the parents see it as that important, it will be stressed. But let’s take a look at your example of Tyler Owens for a moment and dig a little deeper.

Tyler Owens was not homeschooled. He attended public schools in Plano TX. So making the jump from homeschooling being some breeding ground for weird religious beliefs to this as proof is an impossible jump to make. In fact, from what I can gather, he didn’t learn those beliefs at home. He got them from others in the public schools and in college. If you know of something else, I’m open to seeing it. And even if it is true that he started getting those beliefs from his parents, it is moot since he was in public schools. It isn’t a ding against homeschooling since it is proof that if it is important enough to the parents they will pass it along to the kids regardless. But let’s dig a little deeper into your belief that this could impact him in ever getting hired.

If I were to interview him for a job, it is highly unlikely that the subject of whether he believed in space or other planets would ever come up. Not too many jobs actually require that to be a factor in performing the job. He’s trying out for the NFL. What do his beliefs in space or other off-worldly things have to do with how fast he can run, how well he can catch, or how high he can jump? I’ve interviewed people that were applying to be truck drivers, chemistry technicians, supervisors, etc. In none of those did the idea of their beliefs about space come up and they had no bearing on the jobs either.

But let’s consider the opposite. I put up the citation that Baltimore schools are failing their students big time. Only 25% are meeting standards in reading. I’m not sure what they are teaching the children but it isn’t even the basics apparently. And when it comes to getting a job, I believe reading, basic math, and writing skills are all pretty universally important. Since homeschooling is putting out consistently higher quality results compared to public schools, it could be argued that your concern about prepping your student to make them more appealing to a potential employer, applies more ot public school than homeschooling.

^Yeah. I said he went to college.

I don’t claim to know his situation.

It’s an extreme example, too, obviously.

I was just trying to look at it from different angles.

You don’t think that the purpose of ALL education should be to prepare someone for employment, AKA life?

The purpose of education is not to prepare someone for employment. And that misguided belief that education is merely “workforce training” is a major problem with modern society.

Now I’m thinking I might become a homeschooler…I’ll teach my kids Latin, Greek, philosophy, and rhetoric from the age of 5. And God forbid they want to become coders…shudders in horror

^Well. What IS the purpose of education?
Once most people turn 18, they have to either seek higher education or enter ^God forbid, the workforce.
If they can’t aquire an adequate profession, they will not have food, shelter, or electricity to power a computer to code. No electricity for heat, may lead to some shuddering indeed.

I’m all for teaching kids stuff that is more than adequate. As long as some establishment of critical thinking is achieved.

@MrGrimm888 I believe there are many aspects to education. Making them smart enough for good paying jobs is one of them. But really, just to fit into society, you need to know a lot of the basics…reading, writing, and arithmetic. Understanding science is import too, I feel. And yes, critical thinking is important as well. But usually that comes in the HS or college years more than the younger grades. You want to teach kids how to think, not necessarily what to think. And that is the problem with the HS and later education anymore…too much emphasis put on what to think instead of how to think.

I think if you are getting a college education, THAT should be preparing you for a job in the field of your choice. The problem is that has not come to pass either. When you are allowing liberal arts degrees or even basic business degrees, things like that, you really aren’t preparing anyone for a job. You are giving them a piece of paper that might be pushed into a job. I’m a big believer that education, all education, should prepare you for life.

As I mentioned earlier, the only real drawbacks I can find with homeschooling is (1) ensuring a parent in the household can dedicate themselves to it and (2) ensuring you are doing things and getting the kids involved in things that are going to help them with socialization skills. Getting them involved in sports of some sort is a good way to do that, but that requires extra time outside of the house and the availablity of sports outside of public schools.

Typing class was the one that helped me the most on the job market.

^Same for me, Dutch.